Wasn't this sorted out years ago???

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sean G, Apr 12, 2016.

  1. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Well-Known Member

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    LOL... sorry, while I cited the sources, I forgot to put quotation marks in the body of the message. The first two paragraphs, and the last line, are me. The rest is from the sources I cited. ;)
     
  2. Brien Holcombe

    Brien Holcombe Well-Known Member

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    OK, it was a good read. But I do not think, on the weight of one song arrangement, that Jimmy Pages' genius is in question. While Stairway to heaven is a great arrangement, I can't listen to it anymore after 2 + decades. But I can still listen to many of the songs LZ put together. One further, Jimmy Page and David Coverdale. Jimmy's work on that album will get picked over a lot of Led Zeppelins music. In my opinion, obviously, Jimmys' abilities and his musical genius are hardly under or will they become, in question.

    Was it Paul MacCartney that said "Amateurs copy, ", no wait "amateurs borrow, professionals steal"...is that it?
     
  3. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    There is no doubt Jimmy Page knows his way around the neck of a guitar, that goes without question...and I don't think that is the issue here.

    Now it can be said that we are all influenced musically by those that come before us and whose styles appeal to or heavily influence our own

    But when it came to Led Zeppelin, some, not all, but a large majority of their most popular works leaned heavily on the work of others, in some cases to the point of blatant plagiarism IMO.

    And they seemed to get away with it too...now don't get me wrong, I have been a fan of Led Zeppelin since Christ played fullback for Jerusalem...;)

    But sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade....not a shovel

    Here are some examples - (source Music Times - 7 Songs Led Zeppelin Ripped Off - Joey DeGroot May 20, 2014
    http://www.musictimes.com/articles/...tairway-to-heaven-that-led-zeppelin-stole.htm )
    BTW the article I have sourced also has examples of these songs listed side by side for comparison.

    This following is taken directly from the article quoted above by Joe De Groot -

    1. "Dazed & Confused" (1969)

    Though Led Zeppelin often based its music around songs by American bluesmen, the band's first great song "Dazed & Confused" was actually taken from Jake Holmes, an American folk singer that Jimmy Page's previous band the Yardbirds played with in 1967. Page originally adapted the song for the Yardbirds, altering the melody and the lyrics, but eventually recorded a version for Led Zeppelin's first album, without crediting Holmes at all. Holmes finally sued Page for copyright infringement in 2010.

    2. "How Many More Times" (1969)

    My favorite song on Led Zeppelin's first album is the closer "How Many More Times," an eight-and-a-half-minute psychedelic blues jam with one of Zeppelin's best riffs, originally credited to Jimmy Page, John Paul Jones, and John Bonham. However, since 1993, the song has included a credit for Chester Burnett a.k.a. Howlin' Wolf, whose song "How Many More Years" was allegedly the song's inspiration. Listening to both songs side-by-side, I honestly can't hear any similarities, other than the lyrical themes.

    3. "Whole Lotta Love" (1969)

    Written by Willie Dixon and originally performed by Muddy Waters, "You Need Love" was actually stolen by two bands. The Small Faces recorded a song called "You Need Loving" in 1966 without giving credit to Dixon, while Led Zeppelin recorded the classic "Whole Lotta Love" in 1969, which takes some lyrics from Dixon's song. Led Zeppelin would be sued over the song in 1985, though the Small Faces never faced any legal action.

    4. "The Lemon Song" (1969)

    Another song that Led Zeppelin allegedly took from Howlin' Wolf was Led Zeppelin II's "The Lemon Song." Though I didn't see the similarities between "How Many More Years" and "How Many More Times," "The Lemon Song" does sound a whole lot like Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor," with a similar riff and lyrics. The song's titular "lemon" is also taken from another old blues song: Robert Johnson's "Travelling Riverside Blues."

    5. "Bring It On Home" (1969)

    Led Zeppelin II's closing track "Bring It On Home" is divided into two distinct sections. The extended intro, which comes back around at the end, is a tribute to "Bring It On Home" by Sonny Boy Williamson, written by Willie Dixon, while the song's rocking middle section was written by Jimmy Page and Robert Plant. However, the entire song was credited to Page and Plant, but was corrected in 1972 to include Dixon.


    6. "Since I've Been Loving You" (1970)


    One of Jimmy Page's greatest performances comes from Led Zeppelin III with the blues ballad "Since I've Been Loving You," credited to Page, Robert Plant, and John Paul Jones. However, the song's mellow atmosphere is very reminiscent of Moby Grape's "Never," and even "shares" some lyrics with that song as well.



    7. "In My Time of Dying" (1975)


    One instance of blatant plagiarism that the members of Led Zeppelin were never sued over was Physical Graffiti's epic "In My Time of Dying." The song was credited to all four members of the band, despite the fact that it's a well-known traditional gospel song that has been covered by many people, including Bob Dylan. Because it's traditional, no one is able to claim ownership and sue Led Zeppelin over its supposed authorship.


    And thats just to name 7...and that list does not include "Stairway To Heaven" (1971)...which was the topic of the original post.

    Now as I stated earlier in my post, Iv'e been a fan of Zeppelins' music for many a long time, growing up with three older brothers it was like a backing track growing up in the 70s' as it was literally all they played, which had a big influence on me musically and helped shape my love of Zeppelin and their music.
    TBH throughout my teenage years they would have no doubt been my favorite band out of a host of classic 70s' hard rockers that influenced what I listened to...
    So I'm not having a dig for the sake of it, I am just stating my own observations, and the observations of many who came before me, in regards to a topic which has been the subject of much discussion before now.

    It can also be argued that you would have to go far back to the origins of music to find songs that didn't borrow, either intentionally or accidentally, from others.
    Lets face it, there are only so many notes, scales, chord progressions, styles etc, that you can go by...(but in the long run...) ;)

    It can also be said that those whose style influenced each of us musically has an influence on how we each perceive music, therefore having a bearing on how we each individually perform it.

    There is a fine line between being influenced by, and blatantly borrowing from others work without giving due credit where credit is due (and thus having to pay due royalties)

    IMO I see no difference in what Led Zeppelin did in their time and what many so-called pop & rap "artists" do today by sampling the work of others and calling it a new song...only that Led Zeppelin "sampled" others work by actually playing and performing it, not cutting and pasting it, taking from a sample library, or recording a sample off a record.

    To quote @Kurt Foster ...now I'm donning my flamesuit and awaiting replies....;)

    IMHO, FWIW. :D


     
  4. Brien Holcombe

    Brien Holcombe Well-Known Member

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    "There is no doubt Jimmy Page knows his way around the neck of a guitar, that goes without question...and I don't think that is the issue here."

    It was in respect to what Donnie said.

    I say let the lawyers do what lawyers do...pollute. And I will enjoy the music because I understand the roots of rock. Do you guys listen to classical music? If Bach's lawyer was still alive, boy...what a shark fest that would be.
     
  5. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular...and I wasn't having a go at you Brien...not at all...so I hope you don't think I was;)

    I enjoy Led Zeppelins' music, don't get me wrong. I also understand the roots of rock, the foundation that it was built on, also the influence of early blues music on artists in the 50s' like Elvis & Chuck Berry...and also the likes of Page, Clapton, Beck, Lennon & MacCartney who followed in the 60s'.

    And you are right about Johann Sebastian Bach...



    Check out the scary eyebrows on the chick at the 6 minute mark :eek:
     
  6. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Well-Known Member

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    @Brien Holcombe @Sean G

    I don't believe that anyone would argue that LZ wasn't influential, or that they didn't offer up plenty of great music. They've become iconic; firmly entrenched as a musical force that's now considered to be a watershed in the history of rock.

    But, as Sean mentioned, there have been a few cases where their "originality" was in doubt. That said, I also believe that they managed to successfully interpret material, making those songs in question much more commercially accepted than the original versions ever would have been.

    I'm not downplaying the talent of Howlin' Wolf, or Willie Dixon, (or any of the other artists that wrote songs that LZ took ideas from), but those artists were really only listened to by hardcore blues aficionados.
    None one of those artists- not even Spirit - were ever going to be as successful as LZ was.

    And, yes, it's true - rock and roll has stolen from itself hundreds of times; 1950's Doo-Wop was built on the foundation of the 1/6min/4 /5 chord progression; and the 1-4-5 / 1-5-4 progression has been used many times; from Twist and Shout and Louie Louie, to Hang On Sloopy and Good Lovin'... and, how many 12 bar blues songs have there been? Uncountable.

    But I think that LZ did more than just cop a simple and generic 1/4/5 chord progression; they took it further than that. Taurus is an example of this.

    I'm a proponent for giving credit where credit is due, and I think that LZ has "misrepresented" themselves several times over the years, claiming to be the writers - the originators - of these songs - instead of being honest about it, and saying that they were the interpreters.

    If they had been honest, I don't believe that it would have affected their level of success. It may have affected the money they made from royalties - but they'd still have the same fans, still would have sold out arenas globally, and still would have had the same amount of records that went multi-platinum.

    IMHO of course.

    LOL-- all of the above is me, Brien. ;)
     
  7. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

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    "ohh yeah? what are you going to do about it?" ...... Peter Grant was Zep's manager and he had a gangster approach. i suspect that Spirit was quietly informed to not rock the boat or something bad could happen. 25 years out, the threat has diminished, the court claims begin to come to the surface.
     
  8. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    Yep...us Grants' are a war clan from the highlands...paid mercenaries who, when not fighting another clans' battles were busy fighting amongst ourselves....lol

    And the last to bear arms in the highlands ;)
     
  9. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Well-Known Member

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    And us Thompsons' were spending time with your women and drinking your scotch while you were off fighting in the Highlands. ;)
     
  10. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    Seriously Donny ????

    - Have you seen our women ????

    Thats' why we invented the single malt....;)
     
  11. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    We used war as an excuse to be gone from those nagging harpies....lol


    - Ah be kiddin' ye...Ah um nae Jim Delahunt... thae be braw bonnie Hielan lasses...

    Wi hoachin chebs an' wee bahookie...nae be yer minger frae Embra, nae !!!
     
  12. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Well-Known Member

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    Which is why we drank the scotch first.

    Yup... the ex wife was of Scottish descent, and she was an auburn haired, blue eyed, 105 lb knockout... who had absolutely no trouble putting me under the table when it came to drinking Glen Fiddich. ;)

    My sister was a Highland Sword Dancer - who also had no trouble putting me under the table when it came to drinking Glen Fiddich.

    Something about Scottish women... man, they can drink.
     
  13. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    Aye...
    I once dated a red-haired, blue eyed Scottish lass with a surname McCartin...
    Who drank like a sailor...and when she did she'd start fartin'.

    No joke
     
  14. Jim Wagner

    Jim Wagner Active Member

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    No, I’m not dead. This is Jim Wagner resurfacing because of my friend Tony.

    A good article referenced Tom Petty’s problem with Sam Smith and my problem with Tom Petty.

    google / Tom Petty Sam Smith Jim Wagner

    Before we lost Tom, he said in a documentary that when you are moved by a song it gets internalized and expressed by the listening songwriter. He said it happens and it’s all right.

    The world lost out. I summarized the 60’s in four minutes and that summary is rendered dead according to a musicologist who worked for Tom Petty. He wrote saying, “Let your song die a peaceful death.”

    I survived it.

    Jw
     
  15. miyaru

    miyaru Active Member

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    Nice talking about Led Zeppelin...... In my young years I was hugely influenced by the bassplaying of John Paul Jones. And of course I liked Led Zeppelin as a whole, and still do in fact. In the early '90 s I visited a concert of Page and Plant - No Quarter Tour. I was amazed by it, and lately playing lots of songs of LZ, I realize I wittnessed something special.......
     
  16. Davedog

    Davedog Well-Known Member

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    For what it's worth...There have been several 'estates' that benefitted from the plagiarism demonstrated by The Zep. And why not. That machine is still generating income as new generations learn about what they were still are. If I'm not mistaken, one of the main reasons besides Bonzo checking out that they didn't want to tour any longer is because they felt they would be just another tribute band playing their own material from back in the day.

    Seems reasonable.
     
  17. Kapt.Krunch

    Kapt.Krunch Well-Known Member

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    People riff others' stuff often, but the honest ones come right out and tell you. As it should be. If it's good enough to heavily-influence you, it's good enough to send folks to the source. A lot of the great '60s British artists were adamant about telling the world who they were influenced by, and whose songs they were covering. Which was mostly heavily black American blues and R&B artists. In fact, they exposed white Americans to the great music being hidden from them, right in their midst. The Stones, Beatles, Mayall, Peter Green, Clapton, etc., had no reservation about crediting an actual cover, or the the influence of the borrowed riff they used. They resurrected, and even power-fueled, the careers of many of those black musicians who had been ripped-off in contracts, used...but pretty much boycotted on mainstream radio, and then cast aside, many destitute and broken. Credit British artists like the Stones for even performing WITH their heroes, and exposing them to a wider audience. Credit the Europeans who toured acts like "The American Folk Blues Festival" (which actually started out as "The American Negro Blues Festival) all over Europe. Credit the sailors who found and brought blues and R&B records to Europe's shores from America, and the British, especially, soaking it all in like a sponge, and then squeezing out a higher-energy mixture of their ingrained influences and their newfound injection of raw emotion, topical subject matter, in-your-face rhythm, and loose-but-authoritative guitar playing that allowed the notes to say just as much as the words.

    The guys that had the most respect might have found a way to get royalties to their particular influencer. SOME of it may have actually been an unintentional cop, as they may have stumbled onto something they may have heard years before while noodling around, but it was subconsciously riffed without realizing it? But, that's probably a small minority. Most people realize it, even accidentally, in that they think "Hmmm...that sounds familiar."

    Depending on the blues artist, SOME of them may have even just thought "Well, you revived my career, I'm doing GREAT now, so don't worry about any royalties. The royalty is that you got people to appreciate what I do!" Can't blame ANY, though, for wanting their due, after a lifetime of creativity, hard work, low (or no) pay and getting ripped off by record executives and A&R blood-suckers. The royalty thing also depends on whether the artist still even has a contract with the leeches.

    Unfortunately, SOME artists weren't as generous with "sharing their little secrets", and ripped off riffs without citation. Intentionally. Maybe it's an ego thing? A greed thing? Once...may be an oversight. It's not when you have made a habit of it, and have made MILLIONS of dollars by letting people think you actually came up with that genius music or lyrics. Won't name names, but SOME people are notorious for that, despite their actual genius, actually creating something new and different.

    Anyway, all of us grab stuff from here, from there, from anywhere, and anyone creative tries to reconfigure it all into something unique. The best ones make it listenable, and marketable.

    I heard something a couple weeks ago that I haven't heard in MANY, MANY years. If ever a case for ripping off a riff could be made, it's this one. But, I don't remember Canned Heat having a lawsuit against ZZ Top over it? Of course, I was pretty young when "Fried Hockey Boogie" came out, and I seem to remember my older cousin playing it. Hadn't heard it since, until a couple weeks ago. Of course, Canned Heat kept it no secret that they were dipping into the same stream as John Lee Hooker and his "Boogie Chillen'", as many others have done. But, 'Fried Hockey Boogie' DOES have a different 'flourish' of the fingers at the end of the 'chugs'. "Spirit In The Sky", a BIT different. George Thorogood built his entire career off Hooker riffing (and booze songs).

    But, nothing I have ever heard comes so close to being a direct riff-rip than the Canned Heat song (1969?) compared to the ZZ Top song (1973). I even thought about doing flying them both in to my computer, and doing a mashup of the two intermixing! Someone already thought of that (but it would be cool to try to transition back and forth sections, also)! Look up "Fried LaGrange".

    Anyways...if THIS isn't a riff-rip, NOTHING is! (Maybe they all just laughed about it, and Canned Heat said "Hell NO, we're not gonna sue YOU for ripping off a riff that WE basically copped!")?

    (BTW, ya think there MIGHT be just a BIT of good ol' germanium Fuzz the guitar player used for his solo?!) 11 minutes of...well...here ya go.:whistle:



    Kapt.Krunch
     
  18. Jim Wagner

    Jim Wagner Active Member

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    Kapt. Krunch,

    You have a lot of knowledge about lifting riffs and not giving credit.

    It’s was very painful to have my song turn into a hit song, hit album and national tour with my song rendered dead. I could not pick up my guitar for a year. I lost years fighting for what is right. It took years to move on.

    I thought meaningful songs were meant to help this world. They are not written to be rendered dead as stated by a known musicologist in this matter.

    I did a very nice thing writing a song about a DJ who kept the optimism of the 60’s alive. I did not deserve to go through this.

    Human beings must learn how to care for each other. If we don’t change, the future will continue to repeat itself.

    If there are any harsh comments to me, I will not spend another moment on this site.

    My best,

    Jw
     
  19. deolsunny533

    deolsunny533 Active Member

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    I only ever found one song of Jims and that is one someone put up for him. It's very good, so, who knows hey. Just brought it up because it was very relevant to the topic.
     
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  20. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Isn't that the truth. No need to run for the hills! We are usually very respectful here. Someone once told me, we make a difference around our adversaries. Being said... I found your comments interesting. You are always welcome to share how you can make a difference to our readers.
     

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