mackie pre-amps and firewire interface

[inLoco]

hey i've checked the link but... i live in portugal and it only ships to US. and besides i'm still evaluating all the options!
most of all i'm learning with all you guys so what i'm leaning towards is this:
i want to record live gigs, and in my home studio too! quality above average!

so i'm checking now this
rme fireface 800
i need 8 mics for drums, 2 for vocals, 2 for guitars, 2 for room, 2 keys, 1 bass, one ac guitar.
i have a behringer 2004 mixer! it has 8 inserts so i'll connect the drum mics.
fireface has 4 pres built in, so i'll connect vocals, and guitars.
buy some 8 channel pre-amp for adat in. so i'll connect the acoustic guitar there, keys and the room mics.
bass goes from the boss gt6b to the spdif of the fireface 800 and to one of the adat pres.

drum mics i'm checking:
kick- akg 112
snare and toms- sm 57
overheads- sp c4
hi-hat- akg 451 (this one for recording in my homestudio acoustic guitar as well with the c4's)
vocal mics- sm 58 (already have them)
guitar mics- sm 57 (possibily won't buy them cause for live gigs every club has them!)
room mics- i want some cheap ones (or do you think i need them?)
for my homestudio i'd like to see a good pre and vocal/ac mic.
what do you guys think of the sp t3 tube mic? is this good for vocals and guitar? what good pre goes with this? does the cheap one from sp works?

for studio mic i'm seeing this ones:
SP T3
Rode NT 2000
AKG 3000B
Audio technica 4040 or 4033
any other suggested one that goes around those prices?

 

[Kurt Foster]

InLoco,

I will be short and succinct. I would lean towards the ATM 4033 or the SP T3 ... the Rode and the AKG3000 I can live without.

You shouldn't need (or want) room mics unless you have a good "live room".

I don't know what your preferences are but I personally think all pop music is based on the drums. I like to use premium channels for drums or at least the kick, snare and overheads.. this is why these all in one solutions only frustrate me. Below par pres that are really of no use to me, ... it wasted money IMO and a way for manufacturers to foist off useless mic pres on a public that really doesn't want to buy them. Look at Gaff, he wants a solution and is willing to purchase a box that has useless crap in it in order to get the path to a DAW/computer from his nice front end gear. I think it's a waste of money but what's a guy to do? It gets worse when the line inputs on these box's are a padded down section of the crap pres and isn't a true discreet line input ... then you basically have channels that are completely useless.

What I have noticed is a huge hole in the market place for converters. There is just about nothing available between the Alesis AI3 and the Apogee 16 X series converters ... all the RME, Aardvark, Lynx etc. stuff all are tied to mic pres and various formats for transfer. What would be great is a simple 8 channel converter that is line in line out on ADAT and or Firewire. It could be a card option which format ADAT or Firewire that the customer selects for themselves.
.

that's why the lucid I mentioned in my previous post is attractive. Its just 8ch of AD conversion via adat to your computer card- use your choice of pres! My friend, as I mentioned, brought one over and this box sounds good- He got it for about $1100 on evilbay...

here is a link to the lucid site:

http://www.lucidaudio.com/products/product_8824_ADAT_info.htm

I do think he got the previous version, though, one that was only AD, not AD/DA

Yeah .... I'm looking towards a firewire solution ... the ADAT protocol is going to be obsolecent soon because it has issues ... like jitter over any length of lightpipe and inability to deal with higher sample rates ... yeah the smux thing works but doesn't seem to be catching on ... Firewire seems to be more attractive to the marketplace .. and precludes the need for an ADAT PCI card ... less hardware and less drivers to mess with ..

MANUFACTURERS TAKE NOTICE!
What would be very cool ... a quality 8 in 8 out, D to A and A to D converter .. with all the analog circuitry and power supply in the box and all the converter circuitry on a removable card with the ability to upgrade sample rates or even to a conversion format like DSD at a later date ... on Firewire protocol. If this could be sold for under $1000 there would be a mile long line of people ready to buy it!

 

[inLoco]

I don't know what your preferences are but I personally think all pop music is based on the drums. I like to use premium channels for drums or at least the kick, snare and overheads.. this is why these all in one solutions only frustrate me. Below par pres that are really of no use to me, ... it wasted money IMO and a way for manufacturers to foist off useless mic pres on a public that really doesn't want to buy them.

yeah kurt i agree! the reason i'm thinking of using my behringer 2004 mic pres for the drums is simply because i don't afford some good ones now! i expect to be making money recording live gigs from bands who are starting and need a demo! why go to a studio and have around 100 $ for song when you can record a live gig for around 250 $ (that's what i'm thinking of charging). when a musician goes to a label or manager they want to hear them live! that's why i think this thing will work...
so when i have more money i'd sure invest on good pres!

You shouldn't need (or want) room mics unless you have a good "live room".

what do you mean? those room mics i'd be thinking for recording live gigs! put them where the mixer is pointing towards the crowd and stage! are they necessary and what kind of budget solution would you recommend?

 

[Kurt Foster]

InLoco,
I understand .. but I would still use the best channels for drums and religate something else like guitars to the Behringer ... Drums, bass and vocals .. that's pop musics lifeblood! Those things should have the best in mics, pres and to a lesser extent, converters.

Crowd mics can be just about anything extra you have .. In most cases you will bring them up between songs and then turn them down during the music. Unless they are correctly placed and the venue has excellent acoustics .. room mics can create more hassles than what they contribute in the way of good stuff. In many cases, the crowd will come up over the stage mics anyhow and may not be needed at all. YMMV..

 

[inLoco]

hey kurt i'd like you to hear something... if you can... there is here in portugal a band called Da Weasel! they have a new album and just think the drums are phenomenal! great sound! they are on kazaa and emule...
the album is called re-definições! try to download from the web this song:
Carrossel (Às Vezes Dá-me para Isto)
if you can't find it like these try just carrossel or try this one:
Casa (Vem Fazer de Conta)

these songs have great drum sounds! they're sound is similiar to N*E*R*D*

everybody check them out! they rock!

 

[inLoco]

Crowd mics can be just about anything extra you have .. In most cases you will bring them up between songs and then turn them down during the music. Unless they are correctly placed and the venue has excellent acoustics .. room mics can create more hassles than what they contribute in the way of good stuff. In many cases, the crowd will come up over the stage mics anyhow and may not be needed at all. YMMV..

ok! i'm thinking that for now no crowd mics with my budget! maybe if the venues have mics, then i'd try them!
if latter i'd buy some mics for crowd i'd possibly use some that have other possibilities in the studio!

when you talk about those great mic pres for drums... could you tell me a few of the ones you like for drums (may be the expensives too...)
i really need to evaluate all options!

 

[maintiger]

Hey Kurt, I asked this already in another post but you must have missed it- how do you connect pres to the apogee Ad16X? My rosetta has 2 xlr ins and then goes out spdif but i do not see any pictures of 16 xlr ins in the 16X box- Like you I am considering this box but I do want to use it with my own pres-

 

[frob]

not manny other opinons floting around right now so ill put in my two bits;
Loco your useing a PC, go on ebay and find a M-Audio Delta 1010 they go for US$200-400 save your monney and buy a couple of good pres Grace or the like. that way ues the berihnger for the pres when you need alot of inputs sutch as drums and ues the good pres for the single insterment, another thing you will want to do is figur up some kind of baffleing for the computer if its in the same room, carfull not to over heat it though.
also use the good pres for the for over heads when your doing drums.

 

[inLoco]

not manny other opinons floting around right now so ill put in my two bits;
Loco your useing a PC, go on ebay and find a M-Audio Delta 1010 they go for US$200-400 save your monney and buy a couple of good pres Grace or the like. that way ues the berihnger for the pres when you need alot of inputs sutch as drums and ues the good pres for the single insterment, another thing you will want to do is figur up some kind of baffleing for the computer if its in the same room, carfull not to over heat it though.
also use the good pres for the for over heads when your doing drums.

thanks for your reply! but i need to have the ability to use my "soundcard" with laptop and desktop! i need to record live gigs. sometimes i'll go to my keyboard player's house and record something... so i'll need something that works with firewire!
that's why i'm seeing between motu and rme products! if i have the money i'm almost sure i'll go for the rme fireface 800! rme conversion as a very good reputation! i'm sure the pre-amps are like motu's... resonable!
if i buy something like the behringer 8pres with adat is for the soul purpose of live recording! at home i can use my mixer! but cause i need around 18 to 20 inputs live i need to have something that works with adat!
in the near future when money allows :shock: i'll try to get decent pres. maybe not in 8 channel modes, but 2!

 

[maintiger]

Get the 828mkii- you have 2 built in pres plus 8 more analog ins that you can use the inserts of your mixer- then get the behringer 8ch w/adat- that will give you 18 inputs, more than enough for live- that will set you back only 1K and the sound will be good enough for live work

later on, when you get more cash, get 2 primo pres and a rosetta or lucid Ad where you can go to the 828 via spdif- that will give you 2 premium pres for studio recording plus 2 premium pres you can also use live- like primo overheads- The Ad will set you back between $500- $1200, depending what you buy and if you buy used or new. It will also add 2 inputs to your live rig bringing it up to 20-

I've heard both apogee and lucid- they both sound good- I kinda like the rosetta better but that's my taste- also I appreciate the built in limiter in he rosetta to prevent digital overs- If you get an used 48/98 rosetta it shouldn't be much over $700-
then 2 channels of premium pres will run you anywheres $1200 and up- so for 2K more or less you should have a great front end for vocals, solo instruments and o'dubs- (plus 2 great live channels!)

Then later on go for upgrading your pres for live and you won't be stuck with stuff you can't get rid of or lose you ass on- the behringer is only $200 or so and if when you update your live conversion and pres later on and you only get $50 back, who cares, you got your moneys worth out of it already-

 

[Kurt Foster]

Hey Kurt, I asked this already in another post but you must have missed it- how do you connect pres to the apogee Ad16X? My rosetta has 2 xlr ins and then goes out spdif but i do not see any pictures of 16 xlr ins in the 16X box- Like you I am considering this box but I do want to use it with my own pres-

Xavier,
The Rosetta 800 and the AD16X and DA16x all employ Tascam DB 25 connectors for the ins and outs. This is great when doing remotes because you have just a couple snakes to plug in and you set tp go but it kinda sucks because you have the extra expense of these snakes when purchasing..

 

[maintiger]

thanks! I've also been considering the older version of the 16X as you can find them used sometimes for under $1500 - its only 24/48 (it might also be upgradeable to 96k with an update, I forget) but that would be adequate for my needs and is 2k cheaper than the new one- when the new ones came out there were a number of them out on ebay- I should have scooped one up then!

 

[frob]

i would go with the RME over the motu ive used motu and think that their converters are if-ie at best espeshaly since for the money there are better converters arround but like stated earlyer in this thred it also has a few more feachears (sorry about the spelling its been a long day)

 

[inLoco]

everyone thanks for the comments!

so maintiger i've checked here in europe the prices i may get for the following

motu 828mkII - 888 euros
behringer ada8000 - 230 euros
akg 112 - 192 euros
akg 451B - 287 euros
shure sm 57 x5 - 475 euros
studio projects c4 - 322 euros
studio projects t3 - 487 euros

total - 2884 euros
of course i'd have to include more supports and cables

maintiger i've checked the apogee website and didn't see any 48/98 rosetta!
apogee stuff it's really expensive!
do you guys suggest a mic pre with spdif with one or two channels?

kurt do you think i'd go better with the sp t3 or the at 4033?
is the difference worth?
i never tried any tube mic but i sure love my fender hotrod deluxe tube amp! would buying that cheap sp vtb1 pre boost the sound or is a waste of money?

 

[inLoco]

what about the focusrite isa 428? is it good? it has spdif so i can connect to digitally to the motu 828mkII right?
is these any good?

 

[maintiger]

maintiger i've checked the apogee website and didn't see any 48/98 rosetta!
apogee stuff it's really expensive!
do you guys suggest a mic pre with spdif with one or two channels?
y?

the lucid 2 ch is still adequate and is cheaper-

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/188300/

sometimes you can find them used on ebay for around - 400-500 us

 

[Kurt Foster]

inLoco asked;,

"kurt do you think i'd go better with the sp t3 or the at 4033? '

These are different animals ... the T3 is a tube LD [1"] condenser and the 4033 is a FET mid sized diaphragm [3/4"] condenser.

The T3 is a good design and sounds good ... another affordable tube LD is the CAD M9.

 

[maintiger]

The K2 is a great tube as well- I love it- they can be had for under $600 or so...

 

[inLoco]

i think that recording with a tube mic vocals and acoustic guitar it would have more presence and give a warm feel... that's why i'm thinking of a tube mic!
and what about a pre for it? any suggestion?

 

[Duardo]

how does the latency work with the motu and a pc? i would be using both my pIV 2.4 with 512 ram (i want to put more 512 to get better response!)

that zero latency is only with mac?

No, as was pointed out earlier, AudioDesk is a recording program that only works on Mac...basically an old version of Digital Performer with no MIDI. CueMix is the program that controls monitoring, and it works on Mac and PC. Basically the 828mkII has a digital mixer built into it, so you can monitor all of your inputs...analog and digital...with no latency. The amount of RAM in your computer isn't really an issue since everything's taken care of before the audio even gets into your computer.

There is just about nothing available between the Alesis AI3 and the Apogee 16 X series converters ... all the RME, Aardvark, Lynx etc. stuff all are tied to mic pres and various formats for transfer.

There are actually quite a few options...Frontier's Tango is a step up from the Ai3 and runs about $700. RME has a few converters available as well (that are converters only, no preamps or computer I/O) that start at about a grand. Apogee's Rosetta 800 is a step below the 16X-series stuff and almost as good...it doesn't have the C777 clock in it, but Apogee were always known for the quality of their clocks even before they came out with the C777.

What would be great is a simple 8 channel converter that is line in line out on ADAT and or Firewire. It could be a card option which format ADAT or Firewire that the customer selects for themselves.

That's pretty much what the Rosetta800 is...ADAT is standard, Firewire is optional (and coming "soon'). It's cheaper than the 16X stuff, but not cheap.

how do you connect pres to the apogee Ad16X? My rosetta has 2 xlr ins and then goes out spdif but i do not see any pictures of 16 xlr ins in the 16X box

As Kurt pointed out, it has its inputs on two D-Sub connectors. You can easily get an eight-channel snake with XLR's that shouldn't cost more than buying eight individual XLR's or an XLR snake. They're readily available from about every company that makes snakes and cables.

I've also been considering the older version of the 16X as you can find them used sometimes for under $1500 - its only 24/48 (it might also be upgradeable to 96k with an update, I forget)

Actually, the older version (the AD16) "only" goes up to 96kHz, where the X-series goes up to 192.

what about the focusrite isa 428? is it good? it has spdif so i can connect to digitally to the motu 828mkII right?

I have one, and it is good. I have an older Apogee Rosetta as well, and I'd say the converters are definitely on par with each other. I haven't done an A/B comparison, but they sound close enough that I haven't found such a comparison to be necessary. It has both ADAT and S/PDIF, so you could connect it digitally to the 828 either way. The converters are a great deal...they certainly sound better than they should for $600, although since you've already paid for the chassis, power supply, and lots of the analog circuitry the price makes sense. I'm not too worried about them becoming obsolete either, as the 428 still would make a great analog-only box and if Focusrite really wanted to they could certainly come out with a new A/D card if the market ever demanded it. Not that I'd necessarily count on that...

-Duardo