Dithering Question....

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:42 am

Thanks Michael. A great explanation, and clarified for me what I was only wandering around the edges of blindly before.

Incidentally, I can confirm that there is no auto dither in Wavelab, and it must be applied in the master section.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:50 am

jordy wrote:

ok, so i'm using Adobe Audition 3 for all of my recording, mixing, and my somewhat rough, improperly trained attempt at mastering. - but hey, i'm doing it all to learn from anyway.

I am not familiar myself with this program but it should give you a dithering plugin separately. I doubt it would dither as you convert...

Quote:

after adding some limiters and stuff and i get my level fairly hot, i was wondering....should i dither?

Some limiters offer dithering and noise shaping options all in one plug. Does yours have it?

Edward Vinatea

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:44 am

hey thanks, Edward!
yes, some of the limiter plugins i've been using do have a dithering option. - there's just so many options on dithering it seems. -there's doesn't seem to be a "stock" dithering plugin with Adobe Audition, but there's options under the file and edit tabs at the top. i guess i'm just kinda uneducated in this area. the replies seem to have cleared it up for me. i just have to read up on how my program handles dithering. - it seems there may be sort of an auto- dither option that can peform right as i'm converting the 32bit file down to 16 during the burn process, however, i'm not quite sold on that idea seeing that some are saying each song may benifit from different dithering options- such as the shape of the noise and what frequency etc....

i haven't got to check though, if the program has indeed been dithering my previous material....if i load a song and look at the waveform, do you think i would be able to see the dither noise at the beginning or end of the song if magnified?

thanks for all the help guys

-jordan

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:11 pm

jordy wrote:

.if i load a song and look at the waveform, do you think i would be able to see the dither noise at the beginning or end of the song if magnified?

-jordan

You won't see anything. Dithering is a very subtle effect/process, somewhat arcane and thus you probably won't even hear a difference in the sound quality, certainly not a high amplitude.

Dither with a peak limiter when "bouncing" or mixing to 2 track stereo deck (for example a MasterLink ML9600) from high word length values to low, i.e. from 24 to 16.

So, always dither when changing word lengths. And, if you happen to save a lot of money to buy DAC/ADC pair of converters like the Lavry Golds, you would have world class dithering built right in. The price tag is about $15K

Edward Vinatea
Mastering Engineer

Moderator Joined: Sep 12, 2002 Posts: 1881 Location: NYC

All converters have "dither" built in.

You may or may not be able to see the signs of dither depending on what kind of tools you have. If you have spectrafoo, they have many tools that you can use to visually see it. But you are more likely able to hear it on the fades of songs if it was truncated. it will sound "grainy" as it fades out.

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:41 am

okee dokee. thanks michael!

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:31 am

Michael Fossenkemper wrote:

You may or may not be able to see the signs of dither depending on what kind of tools you have. If you have spectrafoo, they have many tools that you can use to visually see it.

Have you ever "seen" this dither process? Do you have like a screenshot of it that you've made in the past to support this claim or is this something someone else told you about. I am really interested to know. Thanks.

Edward

Moderator Joined: Sep 12, 2002 Posts: 1881 Location: NYC

sure, it looks like low level noise at -96db or so. If you get something like spectrafoo, you can also see all the different shapes of dither you have too. Sorry, no screen shots. I don't want to be known as the dither dude when I die.

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:43 pm

Michael Fossenkemper wrote:

sure, it looks like low level noise at -96db or so. If you get something like spectrafoo, you can also see all the different shapes of dither you have too. Sorry, no screen shots. I don't want to be known as the dither dude when I die.

Alright then thanks. But, then again, if you are viewing the screen in real time, one could argue that this is noise floor, not dither. And, if it's the graphic display of a program like spectrafoo, couldn't one mistake it with another type of noise source, like for instance, circuitry oscillation?

Assuming all you input is the sound of your mixer, is this something you can easily differentiate?

I am also assuming that these audio tests are conducted at very high volume levels (in order to hear the grainy sounding fade) which can be impractical for certain types of music and probably irrelevant to a generation of youth that are already half deaf ... Surprised

Edward

Moderator Joined: Sep 12, 2002 Posts: 1881 Location: NYC

Well, that all depends on how good you are at identifying what you are looking at and what tools you have at your disposal. It's not "easy" but with ears, tools, knowledge, experience you can make an educated guess.

I'm not sure why listening to a fade out would be impractical on certain types of music. I also don't master for the lowest common denominator so what is irrelevant is if some of the users can or can't hear it. I can.

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:02 am

Michael Fossenkemper wrote:

I'm not sure why listening to a fade out would be impractical on certain types of music.

Oh, it's cool. I was referring to music like Club music, where the tracks are usually pumping from top to end and fading is delegated to the DJ (with his mixer in real time). I used to be a club DJ so I ought to know... Wink

Edward Vinatea
Mastering Engineer

Moderator Joined: Sep 12, 2002 Posts: 1881 Location: NYC

I see, so club music doesn't have sounds that decay? I'll keep that in mind. thanks.

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:45 am

*caution wasted ranting*

You used to be a DJ so you know what?
The art of playback is for chumps. I'm saying it here, not for the first time. Unless you are affecting with some sort of rhythm and feel the playback then all you are is a jumped up fuel inefficient Winamp.

I bet you all tracks end with an audio zero crossing. That's the pinnacle of fading, the zenith. The apex. The top, ending on an audio zero crossing is the final fade. So yeah. Got knowledge? Can you enlighten me, can you call me out. I'm so fixing for an argument I should call my ex and call her fat.

However I think I have more chance of winning this one so this one I shall choose.

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:12 pm

Michael Fossenkemper wrote:

I see, so club music doesn't have sounds that decay?

Of course there are sounds that decay. There are also beat break downs where all you hear is just a synth note. The point is that IMO, it is not possible to hear the effect of dithering in this type of music. I respect your opinion when you say that you can hear dithering. I just think I do when there is a fade and I am cranking up the volume of the master buss.

Edward Vinatea
Mastering Engineer

Moderator Joined: Sep 12, 2002 Posts: 1881 Location: NYC

Ok, so don't use dither if you can't hear the difference. No skin off my back.

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