Soundbags, deadlines, and a video.

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:23 am

Good afternoon (or morning/evening depending on your timezone).

A little background, I have an obligation to record a drummer in two weeks. I don't have enough time or knowledge to build a soundproof room within two weeks.

I thought that if I could absorb the sound the drummer makes, I could capture a more accurate sound of his kit even if I can't isolate him from the outside world.

Therefore, I built a burlap bag with grommets. It has a single piece of 2'x4'x2" Roxul Rockboard Insulation in it. I want to hang these bags from the ceiling to abosorb sound. My question is, should I double the amount of insulation in the bags I make? My logic tells me it would buy extra absorption, but maybe I'm missing something?

Also, making these bags was kind of fun and easy, would anyone benefit from me making a how to video, so you could make your own?

Love, peace, and all that jazz,

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:31 am

Whoops. Video would be nice, eh?

http://www.sightsoundstudios.com/bags.wmv

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:01 am

Damn that's funny. I laughed loudest when I saw how much Insulation you have.

You have a classic way of communicating. That is SO MUCH insulation you have.

If you can shove two things of insulation in there, when you hang it from the roof with a gap between it and the ceiling of a couple of inches. Can you still walk under it?

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:21 pm

I would move the drummer and his gear into the room with all the Roxul bundles and go from there.

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:24 pm

Yeah, why not just build a little temporary "room" with all the roxul bricks still in their packaging? Unless you have a room full of burlap that you need to use up, too. Smile

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:38 pm

Alright. I'm convinced. I'm building temporary partitions with the "bricks" of insulation. I'm still making bags to hang from the floor joists above, since the bricks don't stack perfect to the ceiling. Plus, wouldn't it be good to have the bags making up some of the surface area? It would seem to me the plastic of the bricks of insulation would act as a reflective surface for higher frequencies, no?

Greener, glad you think I'm amusing. Smile

I like to laugh at myself as well.

Also, I'm going to go ahead and double up on the insulation in the bags, since I have so much of it and no one said it was a bad idea. I figure doubling that stuff will help out with bass frequencies a tad, eh?

Once I get some drum tracks laid, I'll post them if anyone is interested in what my half ass can do.

Peace,

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:43 am

This is a studio designed for disco. That's what we used to do in the seventies for disco. You're not doing disco are you?? Dead rooms make Dead drums. Old boy! Just what I want to hear! Crappie Dead drums. You bought too much insulation because you drank too much. Your drums will sound the same way in your living room. So return the insulation and put some sofas and chairs in. It'll be much more comfortable than trying to sit on insulation blocks. It's a basement. It's going to sound like a basement. A basement with too much insulation. Stick the drums in your empty garage, they'll sound better. You can't prevent people from walking around upstairs so most of your good intentions aren't really valid. In fact, you're probably better off in the unfinished basement for recording purposes. Don't you see the insulation already on your walls? You're not that drunk are you?

Live spaces make all the difference even if the acoustics aren't great.
Ms. Remy Ann David

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:16 am

Richard,

Remy's got a more than valid point, and brings me to question why so many folks think that a dead room is what makes a good sounding room???

It's actually just the opposite boys and girls. Your tracking room should have a life and character that isn't dead... especially for drums.

Drums are acoustic instruments that are responsive to the environment they are in. You got a dead room... you got dead drums.

Shove the bricks of Roxul in the corners and stack em' to the ceiling... that should help with taming some of the low end, but don't hang those bags.

If you need to make a tunnel for the kick, sure... use the mineral wool, but good golly... don't try to wall in those drums.... let em' breath.

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:08 am

Wow Remy! Don't hold back! PLEASE! Tell me what you REALLY think. Wink

I can keep people from walking around upstairs. The insulation on my walls has some type of foil on it, which would act as a reflective surface, no? And I was trying to deaden and tame.

Ok, I think now this is riding the line of studio construction and mixing style. I have been of the impression that you want to record tracks dryer (read deader), so you can add effect (reverb, etc) after the fact. MadMax and Remy, you're saying get a dirtier sound, no?

Does anyone out there disagree with these two? If so, why?

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:25 am

You are in a construction zone. A highly reflective construction zone...with a lot of ill placed bass trapping. Rem and Max know what they are doing, I'm just a carpenter.

I would still decide on the better isolated location in your basement and use that as a starting space. Because of these reflections you may actually have to use some of those bags on a stick to help make the room sound like a room and not whatever it sounds like right now.

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:17 am

http://www.avatarstudios.net/

http://amstudios.net/amstudios/htdoc/Pages/welcome_A.html

OK, check the link to the above studios.... do they look dead spaced?

Yes, I know you don't have that kind of space.... My point is that if you look at the rooms, they are pretty damned reflective... that's what gives them the character that they impart on the recording.

You're free to create a completely lifeless room if you want... if thats what you want as your "sound" then have at it... It's very typical thinking and very much the way all too many drum kits sound now days. I've been playing drums for 44 years now, and I personally think that the "distink" dead sound sux rocks.

I'd rather hear a bit of the room, even if it isn't a GREAT sounding room, than to hear an electronically introduced ambiance that's cheesy.

You've got an empty space in the basement... put the kit in the smallest space and work from there. Stuff all the foam in the drums as you can, close mic each drum and forget the tone of the kit. Track it and sample replace each hit. Viola!... you'll sound like every other drum recording that's been released from small studios... and even some of the bigger releases of late.

Yeah, there's a bit of sarcasm in my tone... just a bit.... Then again, ask yourself this question ... if you're going to spend the money on building a studio... what exactly are you trying to accomplish? If it's not to build a live tracking room that's at least got a bit of sonic character... then don't bother with worrying about a tracking room, and have drummers play an electronic kit or just sample replace em'. Just build a completely dead iso room and build a control room and be done with it.

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:48 am

MadMax,

Thanks for your response. It took me a couple reads and a few minutes to cool off, because I can't help but feel attacked. Perhaps it's just the medium (email), and I'm loosing something in the communication. I'm not here to be arrogant or waste peoples time. I'm trying to learn. Isn't that what this is for? All of my knowledge is picked up in books and forums. I went to school for computers, so I don't have a lot of background and experience on here that others might have.

Your point that artificial reverb is cheesy is noted. I'm going to try and create an environment that isn't totally dead.

I wasn't saying I wanted to stuff the drums with foam. I want the drums to sound how they should, and I was trying to reduce room coloring.

I truly appreciate all the input so far. Keep it coming.

Licking my wounds,

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:01 pm

Chill Weezy, MadMax is aptly named and also suffering from exhaustion without reward, yet, as he is near completing a mammoth and totally professional home studio.

I bet you can almost taste the goodtimes, must be driving you nuts considering the pound of flesh you've put in Madmax.

Dead sounding rooms are one thing, live sounding rooms are another.

If it's a dead sounding room, the sound has everywhere to go, so you hear a flat sound.
In a live room you can hear certain frequencies reinforced, crazy people know how to figure this shit out for things like pianos, drums are easier because you can tune the skin to the room and no one complains you are out of tune.

Got nothing.

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:37 am

Richard,

I wasn't attacking you per se'... more, I was attacking the fact that you have a huge space to create a potentially really nice big tracking space with a lot of character, and you're falling into a false (IMNSHO) trap of thinking that acoustic instruments are to be played in a natural environment while drums (a chief acoustical instrument the last time I checked) are supposed to be tracked in a void and then placed in some kind of artificial environment... HUH?!?!?!

Sorry... but isn't your space a real place?

I'm pretty certain it is, so unless you just plain have to have a tracking session that's void of life, I'd put some R30 in the ceiling joist cavities to create a hard floor, soft ceiling... and watch out for slapback.

I'd suggest leaning gypsum panels all the way around the tracking room and start mapping the big room out with the kik drum.

Shoot the kik drum down the long way... start at 38% from the front wall and move around until you like what you hear. Mark the floor with some board tape and either make notes or record a few seconds at leach location. Once you found "the" spot, then set the rest of the kit up at that location. It will likely be at a node that reinforces the kik's fundamental, so be careful that it's not too much of a good thing.

I would plan on this taking a good coupla' hours depending on how tedious you are.

However, if you just plain have to have a dead space to put the drums in, you can do what I originally suggested...(and for the record) I was the one saying to stuff the drums with foam/insulation.

Then you can mic the cymbals and use the close mic's to act as trigger pulses so you can do sample replacements with drums that were recorded in nice big ambient spaces. (Starting to see my frustration?)

Yeah, I'm voicing my opinion, but it's the core philosophy I live by, and I refuse to change my mind beyond adding FX to alter the environment... not to create it in it's entirety, unless that is a specific goal of the recording, such a Foley track.

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:02 am

Well, I don't think you have too much insulation. Just stack those bales in all of the corners of the room and you have instant bass traps. Leave the centers of the large surfaces reflective unless there are problems. Your bags could be modified with grommets on the sides so that you could mount them in the wall/ceiling corners at a 45 degree angle. Again, maximum bass traps rather than deadening all flat surfaces.

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