Beginning construction in China

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:58 am

Before I begin, let me first say that I own three good books on the subject of studio construction/acoustic treatment:

building a recording studio, by Jeff Cooper
Acoustic Design for the Home Studio, by Mitch Gallagher
Home Recording Studio: Build It Like the Pros, by Rod Gervais

I try to reference the books whenever I have questions, but often the books don't cover everyone's unique situation, and that's why I'm here--seeking advice.

We are currently starting the interior construction of our new home in Fuzhou, China, and I'm trying to build a home project studio into the second floor. It is technically a loft apartment in a high-rise building, so each unit gets two floors--ours is floor 7 and 8. AFAIK, other than directly upstairs from the studio (which is floor 9's kitchen area), I have no other neighbors to worry about. The real estate companies in China do not do full interior construction when they sell units because people in China commonly want to do their own interior construction--that's why our place is so bare, with no interior walls at all.

I'm a composer/songwriter, and I will not be tracking loud bands or anything like that. I usually record my guitar/basses DI, and my drumset is electronic. I do record vocals though. The room isn' big enough to divide into control room and recording booth, so I'll have to combine them.

My listening level is usually from 80db to 90db. My neighbors will be noisy as people in China are pretty loud in general, and also for the next few years, other units will be doing interior contruction in their homes in our building or in nearby buildings.

Here's a photo with measurements of how it looks right now:

The orange color is the dimensions of the room (as how I'd like to have it once the walls are put up). The green color is the misc measurements of all the uneven parts (support beams, storage)the real estate company had built into the apartment. The purple color is where I'd put up a wall and door to the studio.

The window and the glass door are a concern, and I'll most likely just build hinged soundproof covers to close them up when I need to--probably wood panels with glassfiber insulation in the middle, and then put broadband acoustic panels on them.

The real estate company had built a small storage area into the room. I'll probably build a wooden frame around the opening and use a hinged broadband acoustic panel as its door, and let he storage area double as a bass trap.

The construction company the real estate company hired used hollow bricks like shown in this circular cutaway (it's a standard cut made in all houses to accomodate a hanging wall HVAC unit).

Speaking of HVAC unit, the most popular ones used in China are either the hanging wall units (on the left) or the standing units (on the right):
http://gmac.panasonic.cn/product_separated.asp

The lowest noise output for the wall units I've found is 22db, and 25db for the floor units. I don't know if that's quiet enough, and if not, I have to figure out a way to make them even more quiet.

Here an angle from the stairs.

Here's how the wall facing the outside (balcony) looks.

Here's what the building looks like from the outside.

So, my concerns currently are:

1) Does the current standard hollow bricks/cement wall/floor/ceiling used by the original construction company provide enough soundproofing? If not, what should I be adding to them? Simple wood panel/frame+glassfiber soundproofing, or just add another layer of brick/cement? The floor and the ceiling probably can't stand another layer of brick/cement's weight, so those will probably have to be wood+glassfiber?

2) Should I bother replacing the window/door with soundproof glass, or simply just make hinged soundproof "plugs" to block them off?

3) What to do about HVAC?

4) The interior wall (purple colored in the diagram) will be shared by the bathroom. Should I be worried? should to separate them into two walls?

5) Is that storage area fine to be used as a bass trap?

I've tried to do as much research as I can, but since I've never done anything like this before, and I'm no longer in the States, it's hard for me to find any help. People in a city like Fuzhou are pretty ignorant about any of the stuff--I probably know more than anyone else in the city. Anyway, any help you guys can give me will be much appreciated.

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:28 am

What a loverly eastern apartment bloc.

When you say "The floor and the ceiling probably can't stand another layer of brick/cement's weight" do you have any ideas how strong it is? Will any equipment you bring inside be okay not falling through the floor?

Your window plugs will be made much more effective if both panes are soundproofing glass. Though this could be expensive and something that can be upgraded if not sufficient.

Distance the HVAC and use ducts.

Do you have a budget?

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 8:17 pm

I would have to ask the original construction company what the default floor/ceiling can stand in terms of weight.

I'll probably go ahead and first make the default window/balcony door soundproof glass, and then add the additional plug.

If I put the HVAC in another room and use a duct, would I still be getting noise because when the duct turns, the air pressure will run up against the turning angle?

Also, how quiet should a studio be anyway? Below 20db?

My budget is roughly between $7,000~$14,000 USD. But material and construction certainly don't cost the same here as it does in the States, so this budget carries different meaning here than in the States.

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:37 am

"People in a city like Fuzhou are pretty ignorant about any of the stuff--I probably know more than anyone else in the city. " /quote

You speak mandarin? I have a difficult time with the level of incomplete that the pictures you zippedup showed VS the level of complete that just any old china-person has to get to.

So there is only one thing to do, talk to your neighbors. Talk to your real estate agent to get some recommendations on who they would, ah, recommend because you require a designer or remodelor or a meat-ball carpenter to get this up to whatever codes it has to be got up to.

It may be a good idea to begin keeping notes on sound levels outside of your building, e.g. planes trains and noisy trucks.

And get a temporary handrail installed as soon as possible.

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:28 pm

"My budget is roughly between $7,000~$14,000 USD. But material and construction certainly don't cost the same here as it does in the States, so this budget carries different meaning here than in the States."

Yeah that's like 7 - 14 times the average wage in your country. So you could get 7-14 average people to work 8 hours a day for a year for you...

Is that the different meaning you had in mind?

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:07 pm

Space - I speak perfect Mandarin, so communication is not a problem. The only real concerns I have is if I can find the right materials, and if the materials I'm using are the right ones for the job.

We already have workers lined up, and we've consulted two construction companies already, but they don't know much about studio construction so I have to pass on the knowledge I gained from reading the books I mentioned to them.

I've done a SPL reading there with all the doors/windows closed, and it's between 55db~65db normally, and certainly would be higher if someone was doing construction and pounding away (which will be a normal occurance for the next few years in that area).

Greener - I was actually born in Taiwan and grew up in California, so I feel no kinship with China and I do not consider it my country. And yes, the difference in meaning is that the same budget in China could get you further than in the States, but often at the price of having far less choices in products, far less qualified workers, and far lower standard of quality.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:29 pm

You guys are in need of two different things. You need to get your home in order then you need a recording space.

If this were my situation, I would get the build out done on my living part, E.g. bedrooms, kitchens, showers, etc. And leave the proposed recording room(s) un touched.

Where you have marked the purple area, I would have that wall built with at least two layers of Xrock on the >living< side. And spring for a sealed door, have the guys build one of the super doors I have heard Rod's book gives examples of.

You need time to do this right. And I hope someone comes along and makes better suggestions backed with better credentials Wink

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:41 am

Photos of the current progress (now that the missing wall has been added.

Looking from the hallway at the entrance of the studio:

Standing inside the studio in front of the balcony door, looking at the entrance door:

Standing in front of the storage space opening, looking down the length of the studio:

Standing at the other end of the studio, looking at the storage opening space:

Close-up of the wall that was just added (yes, it's pitifully thin. I'll be adding a second wall to it):

I've started building a 3D mock-up in Sketchup. It's still not done yet though (missing details like the support beams, inner isolation walls/floor/ceiling, isolation plugs/doors for the glass window/doors...etc), but this is the direction I'm taking:

So now I have some new questions:

6) What is the best way to add soundproofing to the existing construction (which is all concrete)? Is adding another layer of concrete wall the best way to go? Or should I do the wooden frames with glassfiber panels between them thing? When doing either, should I be leaving an air space of a couple of inches from the original walls?

7) For the floor, I have seen conflicting views. In Jeff Cooper's book, he has diagrams of wood floating floor, but in Rod's book, he says that it's a bad idea to do floating wood floors and strongly discourages it. Who is right?

For my situation, my studio is on the 2nd floor of our apartment (it's a 2-story loft apartment in a high rise. We have other units below and above us. We're technically the 7th and 8th floor. My wife isn't concerned about any sounds I make upstairs while she's downstairs. She's never complained about my music in the 5+ years we've been married. So, I'm not as concerend about the floor isolation in terms of bothering others, and my wife is prett quiet in general, so I can't imagine her making enough noise downstairs to travel up from the ceiling into the studio. Or am I wrong? Should I bother with soundproofing for the floor, or just add a wooden floor on top of the concrete and call it the day?

8 ) All those support beams you see on the ceiling and at some places in the walls--how do people generally treat those? Just ignore them? Treat them like any other corner and put bass traps around them? Since I need to build an inner layer of soundproofing walls/ceiling/floor anyway, maybe I should just make the soundproofing walls flush with the beams so they no longer protrude?

9) Should I just build a soundproofing door for the storage space and treat the room as if that storage space does not exist, or I should turn that storage space into a giant bass trap? If I do, would it throw off the symmetry of the room?

10) For isolation and absorbtion, as I understand it, you can use cheaper material as long as it has similar density to the often mentioned glassfiber stuff (703, 705). So what are these cheaper materials? It also seems that rigid glassfiber panels are preferred because they hold their shape better when making soundproofing walls and acoustic panels. Is that the only reason?

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:08 am

Ok, I've decided to update this thread with helpful links to other threads I started for specific questions/problems in regards to this construction, and hopefully when I'm all done, this thread can be a source of information for others on what to do and not to do (let's hope it'll be a good example of what to do, because I can't afford to fail).

Beginning construction in China
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/201124-beginning-construction-china.html

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10781&highlight=beginning-construction-china.html

(Those two links above contain some posts and images that this thread does not have.)

Confusion over absorbtion numbers for 703/705 (Rod?)
http://recording.org/ftopict-47433-.html

Please help confirm wall structure design
http://recording.org/ftopict-47670-.html

Structural noise and soffits?
http://recording.org/ftopict-47798-.html

Foaming or non-foaming caulk?
http://recording.org/ftopict-47840-.html
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11062&highlight=

How much sand to use for floating floor?
http://recording.org/ftopict-47843-.html
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11066&highlight=

Quiet AC solution (wall hanging units)
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/223492-quiet-ac-solution-wall-hanging-units.html
http://recording.org/ftopict-47494-.html

How does 2nd layer of walls/ceiling not fall over?
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10790&highlight=

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:22 am

edited for content by R. Gervais

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:14 am

edited for content by R. Gervais

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:02 pm

Edited for content by R. Gervais

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:18 pm

Greener,

I have never really had a problem with you before - so I will temper what I say with that in mind.

We do not speak to people in here with the tone of voice I've seen in your last couple of posts to this person.

We couldn't care less where a person comes from or what that country's politics are........

This site is simply to help people with their music - be it recording - writing or creating a studio.

I will not tolerate anything that I even remotely consider abusive behaviour in here - and if it should happen again I will have no choice but to ban you from the room or have you banned from the site.

I hope that puts this to bed.

BTW - just for the record........ this person was asked by Max (a good buddy and client of mine) to consolidate the various posts into one forum so as to stop the cross posting all over the internet - this forum was chosen by that person - so all of the links were requested.

Nuff said?

Sincerely,

Rod

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:33 am

I'm working on some drawings to clarify my game plan, and I still have to do the drawings for the ceiling, floor, and other details, but here are the wall drawings for now:

This is how I plan to deal with the soffits/support beams in the room--basically stick to the "room within room" design but follow the shape of the soffits:

The ceiling will most likely be gypsums hung on isolation springs, with insulation inbetween the existing concrete ceiling and the gypsums.

The floor will be the one Rod suggested--2" 702, 2 layer of plywood, and then finished wood floor.

I'll leave a small gap between all partitions and do the foam backer rod (or use fiberglass) and caulk thing, so they are all decoupled from each other. I have to find some way to fix the new wall to the existing concrete wall--probably with some kine of bracket/isolation neoprene padding solution.

Anyway, more drawings to follow soon.

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:07 am

Here's the floor drawing. The details are in the linked thread "How much sand to use for floating floor? " and this is based on Rod's suggestion. I hope I got it right based on his description.

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