Prokofiev Piano Sonata No. 6

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:57 am

aracu wrote:

Very interesting. The one thing I don't understand is, if the goal of
the outriggers is to capture the sound of the instrument(s) in the
space, why not have them much further back in the hall. David
Spearritt suggested that having the main pair closer would produce
a wider and dryer stereo image, so why not have the outriggers
much further back to capture more ambience. I guess it would depend
on the acoustics of the particular hall.

Think of it this way (well, I do at least).

Get the mics up on the instrument too close and you capture the instrument virtually devoid of space.

Get the mics away from the instrument too far (deep into the hall) and you capture the essence of the space, but nothing much of the instrument.

Put the mics where there is a good blend of the two and you now have a great sense of how the instrument actually interacts with the space. That's the purpose of these outriggers.

J.

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:14 pm

Mr. French -

I hope you don't mind, but I took the liberty of doing what I could with your piano sample. I found the tracks to be usable overall. Granted, there are things I'd like to be better, but I think you still have a potentially good recording on your hands.

Here is my rendition.

What I did -

Each file to its own track.

Left Schoeps at unity gain and panned hard left and right.
Placed left R122 at -2.0 dB and panned -20 dB left
Placed right R122 at -6.2 dB and panned 20 dB right

EQ on Schoeps - HPF at 29Hz
EQ on R122 - High Shelf at 2700 Hz with max gain at peak of curve at 2.2 dB

EQ on total mix - 1dB cut at 814 Hz spanning 2.5 octaves

SIR Reverb - added in lightly to flavor.

Let me know what you think. Given a little more time, I'm sure there's more to do, but I was satisfied with these results after only 5 minutes of playing.

J.

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:37 pm

Oh...I forgot - I delayed the Schoeps by 4 ms. They just seemed to fit better there.

J.

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:45 pm

Jeremy has done an excellent job in repairing this recording. Thumbs Up

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:56 pm

It's like using a stereo pair and two omnis on three
mic stands to create a very wide decca tree.

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:44 pm

aracu wrote:

It's like using a stereo pair and two omnis on three
mic stands to create a very wide decca tree.

Not quite.

Decca trees are flown over an ensemble, not out in front of. In fact, Decca Trees rarely capture much of that "you are there" sensation which I referred to in the previous post - you know, the good blend between direct versus reflected.

When I reach for Decca tree it's almost always because I don't like the acoustics of the venue. It allows me to get a very deep representation of the orchestra despite the rather close placement. It's particularly good in overly ambient venues such as churches or cathedrals.

The benefit to DT is the amazing stereo representation of the orchestra and the rejection of bad acoustics.

The drawback is that there are often significant phasing issues (which can actually help the illusion of a "wide" orchestra).

Think of the above mentioned pattern as simply a stereo pair with an ambience retrieval pair.

This is real similar to the majority of the recordings that I make.

For full orchestra, I usually go:

Main pair - Schoeps CMC6 MK2S (If the acoustics are good - MK4 in ORTF if not so good.)

Aux/Flank pair - Schoeps CMC6 MK2S/MK21 or Gefell M296 (all depending upon the hall)

Spot mics.

I could easily run with just the two main mics, but adding those flanks really opens up the sound quite a bit. Obviously mix to taste.

J.

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:13 pm

Very helpful comparison... and I'm surprised that there would
be more phasing issues with the decca tree configuration than
with the widely spaced outriggers.

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 4:08 pm

I think it depends mainly on how much of the pairs is in the mix. The Blumlein pr with no phase issues has the principal gain. The outriggers are brought up just to add incoherant room, and should not be balanced so that they start to disturb the image.

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:37 pm

That is really interesting, it's like you just add a touch of
them for that extra bit of magic, but just a subtle amount,
being careful not to overdo it. In a way it resolves the debate
between using Blumlein versus spaced omnis. I still haven't
gotten over that mp3 of yours of piano, (arrangement from
Carmen?) great piano sound and performance with perfect
ambience and reverberation, ideal for the genre to my ear.
I suppose that that ambience, if overbalanced, could start to
sound too indistinct.

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 3:26 am

I have permission from the artist to post these samples. The pianist is Jayson Gillham, http://www.jaysongillham.com

The two samples are made with same pianist, same piano, same hall, same piece. You can't get much better than that for consistency. Smile

Etude 1 is the setup as described above. Etude 2 is similar but with Schoeps MK21 outriggers instead of the omnis and with slightly different positions of mics and piano. Both main pairs are the glorious SF24.

http://www.lodestarrecordings.com.au/downloads/Etude1.mp3
http://www.lodestarrecordings.com.au/downloads/Etude2.mp3

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:24 pm

In each example, the recording process has become
part of the process of musical interpretation. The first
example draws attention to detail and the beautiful
sound of the piano, seeming to probe inside the
instrument and performer. It brings out an emotional
warmth and gives a good idea of the lovely sound
qualities of the Royer. The second example has a
slightly hazy, blurred, impersonal character. Maybe
the outrigger mics are turned up or maybe the Royer
is further away. This version adds to the trancending
"religious" quality of the music inherent in the composition,
and sounds appropriate to it. The piano sounds unified with
the space of the hall.

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:06 pm

Amazing recordings David!

Please pass on my compliments to the artist - he is an amazingly talented young performer!

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 11:27 am

I agree with aracu's comments, which I read only AFTER listening to the clips.

What a wonderful recording, instrument, and artist. (not nec. in that order! Wink

)

Wonderful job, David. To me, this is a definitive piano recording, a perfect example of what is possible with today's technology. And it makes me all the more eager to own my own SF24 - instead of borrowing/renting an SF12 here.

BTW: if I can get permission, I'll post the very same Chopin Etude (I think it's #10 in C??) that I have here, with Cameron Carpenter performing it on Organ at the Kimmel Center here. Same music; VERY different approach.

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:32 pm

Yes, young Jayson is a very talented man, he tossed off the entire Chopin Opus 10 Etudes, one after the other, without blinking and all from memory of course.

Looking at my notes from the second example with the Schoeps, here are the dimensions.

1. Piano was parallel with stage, (concert position), tail not towed around.
2. SF24, on centreline, 2250mm from front leg, 2380mm high
3. MK21's on one stand, on centreline, 3180mm from front leg, 3200mm high, separated 400mm

I liked the results from both these recording sessions, the first is softer and sounded wonderful in the Bach and Ligeti pieces, the second recording is harder with more brass, and I preferred it for the Chopin Etudes.

There is still more experimenting to do, and some things need to be improved, but I am converging on a good technique I think. The MP3's do not do the recording justice, its quite exciting in full res.

The second session was done with synched video as well and DVD's were made for international auditions. This was the reason for the outriggers on one stand, we didn't want any mics or stands in the video frame.

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