For the modes indicated, RT60s were approximately as follows:
0.31 s for the {0,1,1} and {1,0,1} modes
0.19 s for the {0,2,0} and {2,0,0} modes
Tangentials were slightly lower in amplitude - but possibly not by as much as indicated considering the error involved with the Hanning window. Tangentials took longer to decay. Should be ample proof, though I don't expect you to be convinced.
BTW: Please don't ask me for waterfalls. I didn't use ETF for the above. What I used has no easily readable way to show decay. I figured the RT60s by hand, toggling through decay curves one-by-one. I checked the math three times. If you want to do it yourself, the decay was looked at over a range of 60 ms. Within that time frame, the tangentials dropped 11.8 dB and the axials dropped 18.9 dB.
If you persist that you have no proof, then I am at a loss. I spent over an hour on this example and I do not intend to do others. And, for the record, having to do this is, IMO, a waste of time. Proving that which we already know is fine for school - the above would be a fine exercise for a college student. However, proving that which we already know when we could be helping people get better sound is a waste of time.
_________________ ---lovecow---
"You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there." - Yogi Berra
jazzman_in_pa Recording Org Pro Audio Forums
Joined: May 12, 2003
Posts: 796
Location: Philadelphia
I've been meaning to mention to you, I just took a detailed look at your studio build diary late last night--a mistake starting late at night since it was so fascinating I went to bed way later than I planned, and THAT was just looking at the PICtures and reading a few lines here and there. I started somewhere around the conception, birth, and rapid growth of the soffits.
My God, man, what a Herculean effort you've undertaken! Just looking at the number of pieces of wood going into each speaker stand, then the entire soffit wall framework, not to mention the multiple speaker cables, through to the Star-Wars labyrinths of "silvan cities" taking shape on the walls. Boy, when I saw the first shots of those, I started thinking, WHERE is he TAKING this? And then to see them get fleshed out, filling their bellies with volcanic-slagfeasts, and, like chicks in a nest, then blinking their mini-halogen eyes as they see the light of day for the first time. THEN the pictures of all the MDF cladding that you shaped to trim off all your traps, standing at the ready like weapons caches of shields.
Simply amazing. The patience and the energy displayed there is truly amazing.
> Particularly if you've a history of making solid claims above your level of acoustic knowledge. <
Personal attack with no evidence.
> IMO you can't handle bad press very well. <
Personal attack with no relevant content. Especially since you and your friends are the sole source of said "bad press!"
> as soon as you get people contending your writings then you get overly defensive, unnessarily unsulted and indeed atack those who question you. <
Personal attack with no relevant content. And it ignores that I am attacked mainly with insults, and rarely any actual discussion of science.
> Not to mention accusing them of campaigns against you or deliberately trying to ruinb you and your company by publishing fraudulant data about your products. <
And you dispute this?! Go back and read your own words at SOS. Of course I'm not the only one who recognizes the obvious vendetta.
> It's your attitude!!! <
Personal attack with no relevant content.
> Eric and Jeff have obviously throughout their long and experienced acoustic careers known of many occasions where non-axial modes have had measurable and profound effects on a room's acosutic quality. <
But it was you who said they have a "profound influence." So it's only fair to ask you to back up your statement. Or admit you simply parroted someone else without understanding the subject. Heck, not long ago in THIS post you stated:
Quote:
The 1/4 wave point is the area of minumum pressure, and absorption ain't much good here.
If you'd have taken the time to read my Acoustics FAQ a few years ago you'd have known how wrong that is.
> With some effort I'm sure they could put together some papers with concrete examples of non-axial phenomena, but why should they bother? <
Because you and they look like fools for claiming so strongly that non-axials matter, but then when pressed for proof none of you have any evidence. Is this not exactly what you accuse me of?
> After all the person asking for this evidence is insulting them and disrespecting their acoustic experience. <
Please show me one insult in this thread. Of course I mean an insult from me, not an insult from you or Eric.
> Eric says something along the lines of ... Instead of respectfully taking his word for it <
Yikes. Here in the US we have a popular bumper sticker that reads "Question authority." Which I agree with. Since you have publicly professed contempt for organized religion, I'm surprised I need to explain to you the empty-headedness of blindly accepting anything on say-so alone.
> I would wager that stems from judging others by youself. This is a big catch 22 of self perpetuating negativity. <
Personal attack with no relevant content.
> you might find yourself not having to resort to 'stretching the truth' <
Personal attack with no relevant content.
> wherever you go you seem to leave a trail of negativity? <
No, wherever I go you and your friends start trouble. I tell you what: Why don't you and your friends resolve to not start trouble for me unprovoked - let's say for two months - and see if all of a sudden the "negativity" goes away.
> Doesn't it ever occour to you that it's NOT the rest of the world that's causing this, but it might in fact be yourself. <
Personal attack with no relevant content.
> if my observations of your behaviour over the last couple of years or so are anything to go by, then you're going the WRONG way about it. <
Personal attack with no relevant content.
> that's exactly the kind of childish emotional blackmail that put's people off you. <
Personal attack with no relevant content.
> eventually I've had to eat humble pie, because evenutally the penny dropped that I'd missed something important <
So where is that "something important" I'm missing? I have asked to see it repeatedly all through this thread, and stated many times I'm glad to be convinced in the face of some hard evidence. So do you have any evidence of the importance of non-axials, or just more personal attacks with no relevant content? Do you have an explanation as to why Eric's calculator is so far off the mark on an asolutely typical room, or do you prefer to just hurl insults?
> You see the reason I took time out to write this post, was to try and help both you AND increase the quantity of positivity on these forums. <
Had you not included all those personal attacks I'd be more inclined to believe you.
Look Paul, I know you mean well. I really do. And I hope you realize that my main goal is to help people, and I've been doing that for many years - far longer than I've been selling bass traps!
At this point I don't even know how or why things have deteriorated so badly. Well, okay, I do have some idea - there's a "ring-leader" who once posted "Ethan must be stopped" so you and others took that to heart and joined him in attacking me at every chance.
Paul, some time when you're not feeling rushed or pressured to work on your studio, go back and read some of your own posts in the various forums where you have made trouble for me. And try reading them from my perspective. I think/hope you'll see this is not one-sided, with me being the main person at fault.
I didn't bother reading the rest of your post because the first reply above says it all.
What made you interpret that phrase as being a personal attack??
It doesn't say "amount of crap you spew out" it says "amount of stuff you spew out"
That phrase was simply a DESCRIPTION of the quantity of your presence on the Internet.
That's why I asked you to 'stop and think' for once. You immediately saw my post as an attack, and responded as such.
No doubt with tit-for-tat instances where you think I've behaved badly.
Go back and read my post again. Yes the post was personal. It was supposed to be. But I'm NOT attacking you or even insulting you. I'm simply telling you the reasons why you keep attracting negativity.
You dont have to listen of course. But IMHO your acoustical knowledge and respect would increase enormously if you stopped and thought about the bigger picture just once in a while.
What about all the UFOs you just don't know about?
I'm no expert about UFOs, but then again I don't claim to be. But I know they exist, because I saw them in Independence Day!
But even if did claim to be an expert in a given scientific field, nobody says that I'd have to know everything about that field to make valuable contributions. At the same time, it would be wrong of me to demand proof from others or then threaten to proclaim myself the sole possessor of the truth. That's not logical, yet science has logic at its core. I love the scientific method and the advancement of human knowledge, and this stuff just gets in the way of what could be.
Quote:
If you have a point... I'd love to hear it!
This is a great forum with a great bunch of guys, including yourself. It was in pursuit of a more positive vibe on this forum that I spoke up. My point was simply this: even while maintaining a healthy skepticism, we can certainly keep an open mind and a respect for others. Won't we get a lot farther a lot faster that way?
I've been meaning to mention to you, I just took a detailed look at your studio build diary late last night--a mistake starting late at night since it was so fascinating I went to bed way later than I planned, and THAT was just looking at the PICtures and reading a few lines here and there. I started somewhere around the conception, birth, and rapid growth of the soffits.
My God, man, what a Herculean effort you've undertaken! Just looking at the number of pieces of wood going into each speaker stand, then the entire soffit wall framework, not to mention the multiple speaker cables, through to the Star-Wars labyrinths of "silvan cities" taking shape on the walls. Boy, when I saw the first shots of those, I started thinking, WHERE is he TAKING this? And then to see them get fleshed out, filling their bellies with volcanic-slagfeasts, and, like chicks in a nest, then blinking their mini-halogen eyes as they see the light of day for the first time. THEN the pictures of all the MDF cladding that you shaped to trim off all your traps, standing at the ready like weapons caches of shields.
Simply amazing. The patience and the energy displayed there is truly amazing.
Lee
Sorry....
I only just read your post
I'm pleased the diary was of interest, and thanks
I haven't much energy left after studio building I can tell ya. The project has turned out way more complex than I ever envisaged when I started it. It just kind of evolved that way
> You see the reason I took time out to write this post, was to try and help both you AND increase the quantity of positivity on these forums. <
Had you not included all those personal attacks I'd be more inclined to believe you.
That's exactly the kind of trust I'm talking about. You don't trust me becuase I belong to the posse that's always going around causing you trouble eh?
Yes, I have attacked you in the past. I make no apologies for it, as I had good reason.....
HOWEVER I am NOT attacking you in this series of exchanges.
And you'll just have to take my word for it ( i.e 'TRUST ME! )
Quote:
Look Paul, I know you mean well. I really do. And I hope you realize that my main goal is to help people, and I've been doing that for many years - far longer than I've been selling bass traps!
If you really do know 'I mean well' then go back and read my long post again, WITHOUT the preconception that anything regarding you presonally is an ATTACK.
You say your main goal is to help people. And to a large degree I wouldn't argue with that.
However, some of things you've 'got up to' ( Publically, and behind the scenes ) often indicate that although you do help people, it isn't your main goal.
The majority of people who hang out on forums only see the "Helping Ethan", and that's why you get support from them everytime our feud kicks of again.
Quote:
At this point I don't even know how or why things have deteriorated so badly. Well, okay, I do have some idea - there's a "ring-leader" who once posted "Ethan must be stopped" so you and others took that to heart and joined him in attacking me at every chance.
--Ethan
Ethan, I have my own mind, and so do the 'others'. And whatever you think about Eric and his motives, I can assure you they are for the good.
The reason I uploaded that long post ( the one that your autonomic nervous system automatically and mistakenly took as a personal attack ) was because I too think this war is getting too long in the tooth, and is not achieving anything.
However the Issues the Studiotips crowd have with you are NOT without good foundation.
You also have to remember that the fall out and wounds from the "ex" Studiotips Yahoo Group run very deep. I ( along with 800 other members ) was an innocent bystander who was hit by the shrapnel.
And I was NOT happy! So you can see it wasn't any whip-cracking by Eric that spurred me into action.
And then recently we had the "Battle of SOS" personal attacks from BOTH sides aside, the long and short of that is this..
1] You claimed Jeff and Studiotips deliberately published data with the intention of discrediting Mini-Traps. While I can understand why you felt that way, especially after the Yahoo group thing, but I can ( and once again ) sincerely assure you that the SOLE intention of publihing that data was to provide an unprecedented comparison between rockwool DIY trapping methods and Commercial Devices.
The fact that Mini-Traps didn't fair well against either the DIY or MegaLENRDS just happened to be the results. Had the Mini-Trap came out tops the data would a] have still been published and b] we would have recommended them. Better acoustics takes a MUCH HIGHER PRIORITY than any issues we have'had with you personally.
2] After much effort as expended on both sides. eventually the issue was resolved and it was proved that we didn't falsify any data in those graphs
3] All you had to do was apologise for your erronous accusations. If you had have done you have gained a lot of respect, not only from Studiotips, but from the bystanders too.
Look, what I'm trying to do here is hold out some kind of olive branch, and talk to you about all this feuding WITHOUT attacking anyone, or getting angry ( I'm quite calm ).
I want to try and see and end to all this. but I fail to see it ending unless there's a lot mroe of the following...
1] Humility
2]Trust
3]Respect For Eric's knowledge and experience.
To qualify this last point.( and to bring this post back on topic a bit ) ... I act as a student in front of Eric.
Hyperthetically: If Eric tells me that tangentials and obliques DO MATTER, then I believe him. And then I'll go and find out for myself.
In the same way, a University Professor tells his students something is the way it is. And.. then... he get's them to do experiements so they can see for themselves.
That's why I suggest you be a proud and eager student in front of Eric and Jeff ( and anyone else who appears more knowledgable ) rather than confrontational.
The best way I can sum up this whole situation is with this damn fine quote....
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
Mohandas K. Gandhi. ( An astute chap if ever there was one )
That's why I've changed from atacking to negotiating in this thread.
But I intended to email you and RO management anyhow.
And I DO mind what you did here, within the context of this thread.
Since it was meant for Paul, I entered it in his Diary now. So anyone can check what was there.
I should enter a link but I assume you should remove that.
Eric,
As much as I like you - there was no reson for that response.
You can email RO management all you wish - this is their site - but my forum.
I've let things go farther here than I normally do - but that exchange was between Ethan and Paul - and I will respecfully let them complete it themselves.
Sincerely,
Rod
_________________ Rod Gervais
Acoustics Moderator Sometimes - late at night..... when the wind whips
through the trees........ and the moon shines bright in my
face......... I think deep thoughts.......... and my head hurts.
eric_desart Recording Org Pro Audio Forums
Joined: May 23, 2003
Posts: 816
Location: Belgium Antwerp
I do like and respect you and confirm this publically.
And you stated before that this is your home, and also I do respect that.
I'm convinced of your very good intents, always.
When I use words they come from my hart and my being, ALWAYS.
Well, in your home live many children.
Warm regards
Eric
Last edited by eric_desart on Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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